Guest Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I remember watching two training videos from a few years ago. It showed a non bhpa instructor towing a red glider from the back of a landrover. It seemed really dangerous, breaking quite a lot of safety rules and the student looked as if he took some serious back injuries. I can't remember who was the instructor, but perhaps some will know on here. He may well not be teaching these days anyway.Richard I think we all know that was at the Lambourn School, I am happy to admit that I was fully involved in teaching him. Mistakes were made and things were changed accordingly. Take a look at the BHPA records for how many people have stalled on a tow. (which is why we no longer use it) This is the one accident that has happend in over 200 students. I actually think that this is very good and comparable with many other schools (who teach far less people) SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I remember watching two training videos from a few years ago. It showed a non bhpa instructor towing a red glider from the back of a landrover. It seemed really dangerous, breaking quite a lot of safety rules and the student looked as if he took some serious back injuries. I can't remember who was the instructor, but perhaps some will know on here. He may well not be teaching these days anyway.Richard The tow rope was not attached to the landrover it was being held by me sat in the back so as I could let go if needed, this has all been said before on many occasions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 Simon.W. Thank you for answering my points. I really am not having a go at anyone, just trying to understand the way things are done and the legalities of it all. It may sound from these posts that im getting all hot under the collar about it but really im not I think it is a great thing that you and others are doing in teaching others to be safe and better pilots. I break the rules all the time and stick two fingers up to anyone that says YOU CANT DO THAT. I'm not whiter than white. The PMC is a great tool and school for paramotoring for all from newbs to experienced pilots. Just trying to get things clear on what really is a sport that does need regulating when it comes to teaching. In my mind if someone is teaching something then yes it does have to be overlooked and checked on from time to time by assessments and thank you for clearing it up that you do keep a watchful eye over instructors and the way it is administered to students. Any school needs regulating. I dont think it should be just the BHPA that teaches and issues certs...thats a monopoly and I hate them with a passion (monopolies that is, not the BHPA. I'm not BHPA through n through and stopped my membership years ago. I am however for competion and the safety of students/pilots. I said about testimonials and you corrected me and I apologise for getting that wrong. The rac/aa thing is silly as they just fix cars and offer a service, fair competition, no need to regulate. teaching is a different matter completely. And to pete B...it was a clear violation of the 500ft rule full stop. I agree that the BHPA does have many hoops to jump through and I dont blame you for saying poke it I will do it my way as there are no official rules for setting up training. The BHPA to me just holds weight with other organisations and getting it all policed, even with all the burning hoops. I hope that the PMC does get more weight with the CAA. And coming out of the woodwork?? cheap dig! check my posts pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 As for any ACCIDENTS that may of occurred during training...they are exactly that, ACCIDENTS I know that when teaching, some students are so stupid that they shouldn't even be allowed to cross the road without assistance, but we have to give them the chance to improve and can not always stop these things from happening. I have never criticised your teaching. I just wanted to know how you policed it and what experience you have in being able to teach. I personally used to bin people off instructor courses if I thought and proved they didn't have the necessary skills to be able to teach. Not everyone that has skills and knowledge can pass that on to others safely and confidently. And as my old instructors used to say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing! Thanks for sharing your background and how you came to be doing what your doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 For now...I will crawl back under my stone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Most of my teacher training came from the ARMY. I have since attended 3 core instructor skills courses. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 An interesting point that will give you an idea of how hard it would be to join the two associations.... I have just called a BHPA / BMAA school to ask for training to obtain my trike licence. I was turned down flat. On the basis that "we dont see eye to eye" LOL What chance would there ever be even IF I wanted to I am now going to call a BMAA school with no association to the BHPA and ask the same question. I wonder what they will say!!!??? PS, this is not a test... I am genuinely looking to get my trike licence and have just been refused training for political reasons. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Dan, I wasn't saying that one is necessarily better than the other as even with a broadly similar syllabus to follow, training is delivered on an individual basis so much depends on the personal skills and qualities of the instructor. This can vary considerably but most students will hold their 'instructor' in high esteem simply because they enjoy that first taste of flight so much. Pete, realistically the PMC could not hope to carry the same weight with the CAA (or whoever) as the BHPA, simply because it lacks the finances, number of members (7000 odd), international affiliations etc and has only been formed recently. Not a dig, and things may change in time, but the 2 organisations are not comparable (unlike the irrelevant AA / RAC comparison). Anyway, what about the ex BMAA and other freelance 'instructors' - do they not also get a say ? The problem with 'splinter groups' (or competition, whatever) is they can cause conflict, confusion and undermine the sport no matter how noble their original purpose may have been. A couple of examples would be Murray Hay with his long running BHPC versus BHPA campaign. The losers in that battle have all been students who trained with BHPC then found they had a worthless qualification and could not fly at BHPA club sites. Another example is the American USHGPA versus a certain 'SuperDull' who set up a rival WPPGA, claiming to be the top CFI and holder of every world record, ever.... Since anyone can set up such a Mickey Mouse organisation I have formed the Cheshire Regional Academy of Paramotoring (CRAP for short), where as CFI I promise to have beginners fully trained in one day and they will get a helmet sticker to prove it (or a free ambulance ride). On a more serious note you bring up accident rates, which coincidentally are the main form of attack used by Murray & Dell ... The BHPA collect and publish statistics, and gather these from all sources - including the PMC, who should correctly report any accident or incident to the BHPA. I know of certain freelance 'instructors' who fail to fulfill this requirement in order to paint a false picture, hopefully the PMC will keep everything above board ...... ? Not having a go at the PMC or its instructors - I just think this is an interesting topic that the OP has brought up. Personally I trained as a hill pilot with BHPA, then did a 'motor conversion' with a freelance 'instructor', then after a year or so decided to take the BHPA pilot exam to make everything official so I would be fully insured for both (not because I'm "into that sort of thing") Perhaps there is room for several competing organisations and perhaps people like having the freedom of choice that absolutely anyone can set themselves up as CFI of their own "school", no matter how competent or otherwise they may be. It just seems like a fragile house of cards that could come crashing down with just one fatality. Personally I believe a single, unified approach is better - perhaps an ideal solution would be the BHPA, with SW, Pete or whoever on the executive comittee overseeing the paramotoring side of things ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) As to rule breaking .... I have a clean driving licence with advanced qualifications & full no claims bonus, yet I have (allegedly / knowingly) broken various rules of the Highway Code when conditions and personal judgement deemed it totally safe to do so. I apply similar self regulation to my flying, the only difference being that I don't post video of my driving exploits on the internet ..... A few armchair critics might take issue with this but I suspect most real pilots (and drivers) would choose safe judgement over arbitrary legislation every time. I think it's fair to say that most pilots wont care what you do in your car, Alan, as it wont affect them. But I'd hate having to stick numbers on my wing and pay fees annually, mode S etc etc, because of an irritating minority. I also feel that this is the view of most pilots and not just a few critics (like me and you) regards Dave Edited May 7, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I would bet everything I have that there would be no chance of that happening. We have tried to work with the bhpa before now, ref accident reporting and information distribution. I could not even get put on the contact list when a new accident has happened. That is directly effecting everyone's safety. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 Not sure I understand your point there Dave ? Mine was simply that (as in motoring) minor transgressions will usually go unpunished (obviously where safety is not an issue). Yes I've noticed a few in your video's too ..... I think S101's original point, although impolitely put, was the seemingly 'holier than thou' double standards approach. None of us want registration, fees and the heavy hand of government regulation. The sport can be self regulated from within, but this task becomes more difficult with a number of different (or opposed) organisations and individuals providing pilot training, guidance and advice. It could only take the actions of one errant pilot, a serious accident or other such bad publicity to impact our current freedoms. Just recently a local freelance 'instructor' has been banished from his rented fields by the council, following the complaints of just one individual about paramotors overflying his house (even at a legal height). SW, anyone can download and submit an incident report form to the BHPA - even a non member. You don't need to be put on a contact list (unless you are wanting immediate notification of any new accidents ?) so there should be no problem for you to submit reports. Like you say this is for everyone's benefit and all should be aware of them. Thankfully there appear to be no major PPG incidents in the past year or so - or at least none reported .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 the complaints of just one individual about paramotors overflying his house (even at a legal height).SW, anyone can download and submit an incident report form to the BHPA - even a non member. You don't need to be put on a contact list (unless you are wanting immediate notification of any new accidents ?) so there should be no problem for you to submit reports. Like you say this is for everyone's benefit and all should be aware of them. Thankfully there appear to be no major PPG incidents in the past year or so - or at least none reported .... Agreed, the accident rate is brilliant at the moment! It has only been the last 18 months that non BHPA members have been able to see the accident reports as they used to be hidden in the members area. It was a conversation between our tec publications guy, and the AIIB that changed this after we had no joy asking them directly. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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